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211 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:22:34 +1000, Kerry Webb <ringle@GMAIL.COM> wrote: >Hugh wrote: > >>But for crying out >> loud, would it have killed him to have a little cry after his WIFE DIED??? >> > >But he did. He just didn't do it while POB was there with his >reporter's notebook. > >There are plenty of things that a character such as Stephen would have >done in his lifetime - we're only shown a very tiny portion of them by >the man who ...

Poster's Name:	Hugh Yeman
Poster's Email:	Hughyeman@YAHOO.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-23 12:35:06 UTC

212 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

***Spoilers***  Hugh wrote: >>But for crying out > > loud, would it have killed him to have a little cry after his WIFE DIED??? > >  On 6/23/05, Kerry Webb <ringle@gmail.com> wrote: > But he did. He just didn't do it while POB was there with his > reporter's notebook. > > There are plenty of things that a character such as Stephen would have > done in his lifetime - we're only shown a very tiny portion of them by > the man who created the ch ...

Poster's Name:	Don Seltzer
Poster's Email:	timoneer@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-23 11:46:39 UTC

213 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

Hugh wrote: > > Again, I want to make it clear that I don't dislike Stephen. Hell, I'm more > fond of him than Jack! Maybe that's *why* I'm as hard on him as I am. I > want him to allow him some sort of release. Not all of the time - I mean, I > don't want him crying on Jack's shoulder in every book. But for crying out > loud, would it have killed him to have a little cry after his WIFE DIED??? > But he did. He just didn't do it while POB was there with his ...

Poster's Name:	Kerry Webb
Poster's Email:	ringle@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-23 03:36:45 UTC

214 SPOILER: Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

SPOILER (I never really know, but why take a chance?) * * * * * * * * * This has bothered me for a while, and reading the discussion about POB "liberating" Sophie in YA has given me some ideas to ponder. So, having mulled it over and over for several days, and not being able to reconcile Sophie's possible actions or Diana's words with the discussion, I humbly put forth the following: I don't think POB was enlightening or liberating anyone. Diana was just being Diana. ...

Poster's Name:	Ginger Scheer-White
Poster's Email:	gscheer@YAHOO.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-23 03:24:54 UTC

215 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:29:28 -0700, Robin Welch <robinwelch@GMAIL.COM> wrote: >On 6/21/05, Hugh Yeman <hughyeman@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Are you saying he's being altruistic? If so, I disagree. I believe he >> hides his pain because of his pride and because of his disdain for emotional >> displays, not because he's concerned about burdening others. > >Eeek! I see it as 100% altruism. Stephen, the physician, declines to >burden others with ...

Poster's Name:	Hugh Yeman
Poster's Email:	Hughyeman@YAHOO.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-22 15:05:52 UTC

216 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

On 6/21/05, Hugh Yeman <hughyeman@yahoo.com> wrote: > Are you saying he's being altruistic? If so, I disagree. I believe he > hides his pain because of his pride and because of his disdain for emotional > displays, not because he's concerned about burdening others. Eeek! I see it as 100% altruism. Stephen, the physician, declines to burden others with his own problems, because his role is to solve others' problems. I think Stephen's downright saintly this way. Robin

Poster's Name:	Robin Welch
Poster's Email:	robinwelch@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-22 14:44:51 UTC

217 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

> [mailto:GUNROOM@HMSSURPRISE.ORG]On Behalf Of Hugh Yeman > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:20 PM > To: GUNROOM@HMSSURPRISE.ORG > Subject: [POB] *SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was > Starting BATM, looking back) [snip] > Yeah, probably. I don't enjoy arguing and I certainly don't think I'm > saying anything remotely lofty, much less anything you don't get. I keep > coming back to this thread because I think I must not be expressing myself > cl ...

Poster's Name:	Marian Van Til
Poster's Email:	rxbach@ADELPHIA.NET
Message Date:	2005-06-22 13:37:22 UTC

218 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM. looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Charles Munoz wrote: > Diana said: Then I said, but in a tone I thought she would > understand, that what she most urgently needed was a really kind, > gentle and > considerate lover to put her in tune and show her what all the talk and > poetry and music and fine clothes were really about, and how it > justified > them all...." > This thread has brought back to mind something that struck me as a little wry, when I read DI a couple of months ago. In DI (p1 ...

Poster's Name:	Heather Davies
Poster's Email:	heather@DAVIES.DYNDNS.ORG
Message Date:	2005-06-22 11:20:49 UTC

219 ... SPOILERS* Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back) -- rank: 633

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:57:48 +0100, Sara Waterson <s.waterson@UKONLINE.CO.UK> wrote: >Hugh wrote~ > << This made me think that POB was making a statement about >the >relative merits of some modern sensibilities, and that informed my >opinion >that he thought of Stephen's emotional self-abnegation as a bad thing. > >> > > >Hugh I think this, above, is what we all disagree with. > >I appreciate you are trying to make a p ...

Poster's Name:	Hugh Yeman
Poster's Email:	hughyeman@YAHOO.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-22 01:34:21 UTC

220 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

This whole thread has been frustrating to me. Here's just one bit: Diana said: Then I said, but in a tone I thought she would understand, that what she most urgently needed was a really kind, gentle and considerate lover to put her in tune and show her what all the talk and poetry and music and fine clothes were really about, and how it justified them all...." > Upon wch Hugh asked: > Did anyone else find this passage particularly gratuitous? It stuck > out to > me ...

Poster's Name:	Charles Munoz
Poster's Email:	Charlezzzzz@COMCAST.NET
Message Date:	2005-06-21 22:32:56 UTC

221 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On 6/21/05, Robin Welch <robinwelch@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't think Stephen was ever a serious addict. > > Robin > I respectfully disagree. The entire sub-theme of Desolation Island is S P O I L E R S P A C E Stephen's laudanum addiction, including the fact that he loses a patient and fears that laudanum is to blame. The doctors who visit Ashgrove Cottage at the beginning of the book are gossiping about it. He then goes off laudanum when he and Ja ...

Poster's Name:	Rosemary Davis
Poster's Email:	villiers@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-21 17:09:48 UTC

222 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On 6/21/05, Jaap Fabriek <jjfabriek@chello.nl> wrote: > BTW it is clear that PO'B's writing changed over the years. Words that in > the earlier books would be spelled '---' idiots, developed through an > effing colonel to your plain wicked 'fucking' bastards towards the end. I > make no doubt this reflects more the change in our own society at large > than in The Master himself. I think we've discussed this before and determined that PO'B would spell such things out e ...

Poster's Name:	Derek LeLash
Poster's Email:	dlelash@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-21 17:03:00 UTC

223 ... Re: [POB] Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Robin wrote.............<Stephen repeatedly asks himself whether he is addicted to laudanum. He has an amazing self-awareness and honesty, and checks himself, questions himself, on guard against the impervious horrors of opium eating. And he's prepared to go cold turkey, which he successfully does, with his amazing powers of self control.> Spoilers below. . . . . . . . . . . . . I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Every addict that I've ever known has said that they aren't add ...

Poster's Name:	John Meyn
Poster's Email:	homer@THESPIDERFARM.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-21 16:33:22 UTC

224 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

I don't think Stephen was ever a serious addict. In POB's usual style, this is somewhat ambiguous, and in LOM he sets a trap for those who would judge Stephen, in that Stephen is tricked into taking high doses of the stuff, when it is really mostly brandy. Stephen repeatedly asks himself whether he is addicted to laudanum. He has an amazing self-awareness and honesty, and checks himself, questions himself, on guard against the impervious horrors of opium eating. And he's prepared to go ...

Poster's Name:	Robin Welch
Poster's Email:	robinwelch@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-21 16:13:50 UTC

225 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:25:56 +0200, Elise van Looij <evlooij@XS4ALL.NL> wrote: >Op 21-jun-2005, om 12:10 heeft Adam Quinan het volgende geschreven: > >> I keep wondering about "the convention of the day" for the stiff upper >> lip, hiding one's emotions, not discussing sex, etc. etc. >> While I would agree that became the expected behaviour in Victorian >> times and the first half or more ofg the 20th century, I don't think >> that it w ...

Poster's Name:	Jaap Fabriek
Poster's Email:	jjfabriek@CHELLO.NL
Message Date:	2005-06-21 12:46:55 UTC