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226 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Op 21-jun-2005, om 12:10 heeft Adam Quinan het volgende geschreven: > I keep wondering about "the convention of the day" for the stiff upper > lip, hiding one's emotions, not discussing sex, etc. etc. > While I would agree that became the expected behaviour in Victorian > times and the first half or more ofg the 20th century, I don't think > that it was so during the Georgian and Regency periods, or at least > not nearly to the same extent. Reading William Hicke ...

Poster's Name:	Elise van Looij
Poster's Email:	evlooij@XS4ALL.NL
Message Date:	2005-06-21 11:39:46 UTC

227 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On 6/20/05, Sara Waterson <s.waterson@ukonline.co.uk> wrote: > Hugh wrote~ > << This made me think that POB was making a statement about > the > relative merits of some modern sensibilities, and that informed my > opinion > that he thought of Stephen's emotional self-abnegation as a bad thing. > >> > > > Hugh I think this, above, is what we all disagree with. > > I appreciate you are trying to make a point which ma ...

Poster's Name:	Adam Quinan
Poster's Email:	hms.bee@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-21 09:24:12 UTC

228 Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Hugh wrote~            << This made me think that POB was making a statement about the relative merits of some modern sensibilities, and that informed my opinion that he thought of Stephen's emotional self-abnegation as a bad thing. >> Hugh I think this, above, is what we all disagree with. I appreciate you are trying to make a point which may have some validity [although you have confused it a bit by bringing in the matter of Diana's extempore paeon to sex!]; but we are ...

Poster's Name:	Sara Waterson
Poster's Email:	s.waterson@UKONLINE.CO.UK
Message Date:	2005-06-21 08:53:36 UTC

229 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On Jun 20, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Gerry Strey wrote: > > And while we're on abrupt variaitons of style and character, how about > Christine's and Stephen's nude birdwatching? The scene doesn't convey > a > sense of eroticism, it's just outlandish. > > Adam and Eve: there they were in the Garden, watching birds, and Somebody gave Adam the job of naming every creature in the Garden. "Lookie that bird," he said. "I call it the Zebra." "Um," ...

Poster's Name:	Charles Munoz
Poster's Email:	Charlezzzzz@COMCAST.NET
Message Date:	2005-06-21 03:48:43 UTC

230 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Look at what Diana says to Stephen >in chapter eight of _The Yellow Admiral_: > > "And we went on about the very intense delight there is or ought to be in >love-making - I said it was an absolute duty to enjoy it and to give as much >pelasure in return as ever one could - that the pleasure was infectious. >Clarissa spoke, and spoke very much more delicately than I did, quoting some >Latin author about the way men like their partners to behave and poor Soph ...

Poster's Name:	Julie Hoffman
Poster's Email:	tomatoejane2@HOTMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 21:27:47 UTC

231 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:42:50 -0700, Robin Welch <robinwelch@GMAIL.COM> wrote: SNIP> >I listened to a recorded presentation of "Dangerous Liaisons" on three >CDs, SNIP. I >can't comment on the original novel 'cause I haven't read it, but I >assume that, like the CD abridgement, it's the epistolary novel form. >Filled with sex, and yet, not one word that cannot be said in front of >the children. " Exactly. I did read Dangerous Liaisons (english ...

Poster's Name:	Julie Hoffman
Poster's Email:	tomatoejane2@HOTMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 21:02:56 UTC

232 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

A big part of the fun of reading history, for me, is taking note of the similarities between our modern world and the many past worlds, rather than the differences. One appeal of POB is that he seems to incorporate this concept into his writing at every turn. I agree though, that the YA conversation about sex stood out as anomalous against the backdrop of the POB style. Had such a conversation taken place in 1800-ish, I believe it would be much more subtle and dotted with euphemism. I ...

Poster's Name:	Robin Welch
Poster's Email:	robinwelch@GMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 18:56:35 UTC

233 Re: SPOILERS Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:12:09 +0100 Julie Hoffman <tomatoejane2@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: <snip> > I don't know about "modern sensibilities", I'll leave that alone, but I > agree that the particular part of TYA that Hugh quoted, with Diana telling > Stephen what she and Clarissa told Sophie, felt like a lead sinker when I > first read it. It is SO different from most of the tone of the rest of the > novels and it felt just plain weird to read it. Not weird ...

Poster's Name:	Rick Ansell
Poster's Email:	rick@NB-INVINCIBLE.ORG.UK
Message Date:	2005-06-20 18:55:25 UTC

234 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:30:06 -0400, Gus Spier <gus@SHIRENET.COM> wrote: >A glass with you, sir. > >I do not think you are reading into the canon messages that aren't >there; nor are you idealizing history. The fault is mine. I must read >more carefully what is being written. > >Once I return to the original post, read it again, it is intuitively >obvious to even the most casual observer that I have not been paying >attention. You are too good, sir. I ...

Poster's Name:	Hugh Yeman
Poster's Email:	Hughyeman@YAHOO.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 18:03:35 UTC

235 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Gerry Strey wrote: > POTENTIAL SPOILER. . . . > > > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > And while we're on abrupt variaitons of style and character, > how about Christine's and Stephen's nude birdwatching? > The scene doesn't convey a sense of eroticism, it's just > outlandish. I think it would be outlandish to expect the birds to be wearing clothes. -- Timothy

Poster's Name:	Timothy Byrd
Poster's Email:	timbyrd@POBOX.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 16:40:27 UTC

236 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

POTENTIAL SPOILER. . . . I don't think that there's any question that the early 19th century was in favor of sexual pleasure (FOW--the colonies have always been in favor of copulation), knew certain methods of birth control, and ladies as well as men were known to look outside marriage if their partners were not satisfactory. But I agree with everyone who feels that this passage has a very 21st century feel and sits awkwardly outside POB's usual style. And while POB presents a modern a ...

Poster's Name:	Gerry Strey
Poster's Email:	gestrey@WHS.WISC.EDU
Message Date:	2005-06-20 16:12:39 UTC

237 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

Hugh Yeman wrote: <snip quote from The Yellow Admiral> > Did anyone else find this passage particularly gratuitous? > It stuck out to me like a sore thumb. That quote could > have been taken verbatim from any number of modern, > "new agey" sources. I think that POB was taking some > late twentieth century thinking to heart and giving it some > facetime in his books. It is most certainly diametrically > opposed to the conventional wisdom of Diana's ...

Poster's Name:	Timothy Byrd
Poster's Email:	timbyrd@POBOX.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 15:51:09 UTC

238 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

A glass with you, sir. I do not think you are reading into the canon messages that aren't there; nor are you idealizing history. The fault is mine. I must read more carefully what is being written. Once I return to the original post, read it again, it is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that I have not been paying attention. r, G Hugh Yeman wrote: >I'm not clear on what you're saying. Do you think I'm reading into the >canon messages that aren't there, and ...

Poster's Name:	Gus Spier
Poster's Email:	gus@SHIRENET.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 15:44:11 UTC

239 Re: Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

> "And we went on about the very intense delight there is or ought to be in > love-making - I said it was an absolute duty to enjoy it and to give as much > pelasure in return as ever one could - that the pleasure was infectious. > Clarissa spoke, and spoke very much more delicately than I did, quoting some > Latin author about the way men like their partners to behave and poor Sophie > looked absolutely blank, muttering she thought you just lay there and let ...

Poster's Name:	Stolzi
Poster's Email:	Stolzi@COMCAST.NET
Message Date:	2005-06-20 14:44:18 UTC

240 SPOILERS Did POB change with the times? (was Starting BATM, looking back *SPOILERS*) -- rank: 633

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:03:21 +0100, Hugh Yeman <Hughyeman@YAHOO.COM> wrote: > >I don't see why it should be taken as some sort of insult to think that POB >could have adopted some modern sensibilities and expressed them in his >story, and by using the word "modern sensibilities" I am *not* claiming >that they are exclusive to the modern world. I'm saying that they're a lot >more common in the late twentieth century than in the early nineteenth and >th ...

Poster's Name:	Julie Hoffman
Poster's Email:	tomatoejane2@HOTMAIL.COM
Message Date:	2005-06-20 14:25:33 UTC